While the final success of Avatar: The Way of Water continues to be being decided, it’s already modified filmmaking as we all know it. Long earlier than the sequel hit theaters, director James Cameron invested a lot time and Hollywood cash into the franchise, it gave the workforce at Weta Digital the boldness and sources to improve the way in which they made not simply Avatar, however all films.
So, because of Avatar: The Way of Water, Joe Letteri and his workforce at Weta had been ready to make use of a model new system for facial animation, making the Na’vi of Pandora much more plausible and expressive than they had been within the first movie. They pioneered a singular rig to verify CGI characters and people might get the fitting eye line. They constructed an entire new system to maintain information flowing from the set and into Weta computer systems. The checklist goes on and on.
io9 spoke with Letteri, the movie’s senior VFX supervisor who received Oscars for his work on Avatar, King Kong, and The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King in addition to The Two Towers, concerning the decade-plus build-up to Avatar: The Way of Water.
This interview has been edited for size and readability.
G/O Media might get a fee
Germain Lussier, io9: So you started engaged on this movie in 2017 however the press notes say, in 2010, James Cameron had a tech summit to debate the sequels then. What got here out of that assembly?
Joe Letteri: So what got here out of that was principally, Jim convened it to say, “Okay, when we do the next one”— which was good as a result of it meant we had been doing a subsequent one—“When we do the next one, how do we do this better?” One of the issues that occurred on the primary one, [Cameron’s company] Lightstorm was spinning up this complete course of: their digital manufacturing, their stage, their artwork division…and since the movie had not truly been greenlit—that is like again in like 2006—[Weta] couldn’t formally come on and work with them to construct an built-in system. So we gave as a lot recommendation as doable however actually we found, going by the method, a whole lot of the info that got here by needed to be redone since you’re doing one thing in a single system and shifting it to a different system. And we stated the very first thing now we have to do [on a sequel] is combine what we’re doing on each side and Lightstorm agreed. So we instantly sat down and began to construct a system that may work on each ends.
All the issues we noticed within the first movie that we thought we might do higher, we simply began engaged on. And, fortuitously, we had been doing a whole lot of different movies in that interval that we might iterate on the software program and take a look at it and use it. These issues grew to become essential to do the opposite movies we’ve been engaged on as properly.
io9: So you’re engaged on these different films considering, “Oh, yes, this is going to work on Avatar 2.”
Letteri: Exactly proper. And I believe the final step on that prepare for us was Alita: Battle Angel. Because we had been working with Lightstorm straight, although it was Robert Rodriguez directing it. It was a whole lot of the identical groups, a whole lot of the identical instruments. Like, for the onset seize, we actually battle-tested for the final time that suite of instruments earlier than we reduce unfastened with Jim on it.
io9: So it’s been about 5 years since your workforce began working solely on Avatar 2, which is a lifetime by way of technological development. Is there ever a state of affairs the place you’re utilizing a chunk of expertise or a chunk of software program and also you understand because the shot is nearly full that there’s new expertise that may do it higher?
Letteri: Anything that’s altering, we’re writing a whole lot of it ourselves. The new facial system, the brand new simulation engine, that’s us doing it. So we sort of know the place we’re. And at that time, we all know if we’re near having one thing higher, we’ll maintain off ending the shot as a result of if you can also make it higher, you wish to make it higher. So we didn’t actually get caught out by like “Hey, let’s go back and look at what we did two years ago and let’s see if we can do it better.”
io9: So of all of the issues your workforce created for this movie, what was the most important development? Was it that built-in pipeline between Weta and Lightstorm?
Letteri: Our facial animation system coming off the heels of Alita. Alita was nonetheless utilizing a model of the system that we had created for Gollum. It had been refined and gone by a whole lot of iterations and it was primarily based on a FACS system— “facial action coding system”—and it served us properly. But we realized the sort of element we had been chasing in Alita, and that was only one single character, that system had sort of reached the top of its life. And so I began eager about a brand new method that we’d do it, and hit on the concept that we might truly use a neural community to imitate the way in which that the muscle tissue within the face behave. So that’s what we did. We wrote a system that was primarily based truly on a collection of neural networks to sort of transcode, if you’ll, or transcribe what we’re seeing an actor doing into what the character is doing—and permitting for hooks of both working a bodily solver on it or having animators straight manipulate it. Everybody was working with the identical under-the-hood management construction, which is knowing how the muscle tissue drive emotion.
io9: If you had provide you with that concept on the primary Avatar, or every other movie you’ve achieved since, was the expertise there to do it earlier than or is that one thing that’s particularly a 2022 factor?
Letteri: I believe just about it was [a new thing] as a result of it’s a tough system to spin up. So you want the fitting undertaking to do it. You want a undertaking the place you realize you’re going to have numerous characters in shut up and also you is perhaps doing multiple film. That’s the place it’s value taking the leap to do it. Otherwise, although the older system is more durable, you’ve obtained animators who nonetheless know how one can make it work and which will truly be extra environment friendly. You can nonetheless get good outcomes out of it. But it could have been just about inconceivable to get the outcomes we obtained on this movie utilizing that outdated system.
io9: Right. I believe folks don’t all the time perceive once they discuss nonetheless a lot cash a film like this prices, it’s not solely going to the actors or digital results. Sometimes it’s folks creating software program or expertise that actually didn’t exist earlier than, and that may be costly.
Letteri: Yes, precisely.
io9: Obviously it is a visible effects-driven movie however there are many on-set improvements taking place too, similar to underwater efficiency seize. How essential is it to get the absolute best on-set uncooked supplies earlier than your workforce takes a crack at it?
Letteri: One hundred %, and also you’ve obtained two features there. One is efficiency. If you’ve obtained an actor’s efficiency, sure, you’ll be able to go in and alter it, even when it’s an actual actor after the actual fact. But you actually don’t wish to. You need these beats which might be within the second. If you don’t prefer it, simply get one other take. That’s the time to do it, you realize what I imply? But what up to now has been actually difficult is live-action characters coping with CG characters. Eye traces are the most important situation. And we knew we wished to get previous just like the tennis ball on a stick. So we created an eye fixed line system that was principally a cable cam so we might take the efficiency of the digital actors and run it by this cable cam. And somewhat than simply having a tennis ball there, we had a monitor there that confirmed the actor’s efficiency.
So for those who take Spider, for instance. Because Jim does this private efficiency seize step, he shot the entire film in efficiency seize. So Jack Champion [who plays Spider] was working with Stephen Lang [Quaritch] they usually performed these scenes already. So when it got here time for Jack to do it stay, he’s on set, however he’s obtained this monitor now that’s shifting round at Quaritch’s right eye place, however with Stephen’s efficiency on it. So he’s reacting to the identical efficiency that he’s already used to working with. And so it gave us eye line. It gave us motion by area that was right. And you’re not doing the same old factor the place the actor is chasing the tennis ball with the man that’s holding it. Or the character can’t truly stroll that quick or the character has to bend over. Like [in the past], you’re all the time having to make these animation changes to attempt to make it plausible. But now, as a result of all the things was in the fitting place to start with, your digicam framing is there as a result of we had this new depth compositing software that we wrote. So you’re seeing all the things built-in stay pixel by pixel in correct 3D as you’re capturing it. It gave us a a lot stronger baseline to combine the stay motion with.
io9: Was there a specific shot or scene or character that was probably the most tough or that you just knew, for those who obtained this proper, all the things else can be fantastic?
Letteri: The very first scene we did was the dialogue scene with Jake and Neytiri the place they’re in High Camp and Jake is attempting to persuade her to go away. And that was actually bringing again the 2 characters from 15 years earlier, dusting them off, updating them to all the brand new software program, the brand new element within the pores and skin, the brand new lighting methods, the brand new hair, but additionally the brand new facial system. And that was actually the place we battle-tested just about all the things aside from the water, in that one scene. So we truly spent a 12 months on that scene simply to verify we had it proper and understood it. At that time, we began rolling it out to the opposite characters and, you realize, branching out to do the remainder of the pictures.
io9: I’m stunned you didn’t say one thing from the ultimate battle sequence as a result of it’s so unbelievable. How does that scene evaluate to different belongings you’ve achieved?
Letteri: I believe that is the most important undertaking I’ve labored on due to the water. Like when a personality hits the water, they transfer in a different way. When they emerge from the water, they transfer in a different way. They’re interacting with the water and water is splashing and exploding all over the place. There’s much more complicated while you’re doing a lot interplay with water.
io9: Is there something that you just couldn’t do effects-wise earlier than this film however can do now after it?
Letteri: Jim all the time says, “Hey, by the time we’re done, we’ll know how to make this movie.” And that was about proper, particularly when it got here to the water. Like we had the characters on a reasonably good roll early on. But the water simply saved getting greater and larger, particularly as we had been doing the battle scenes. We saved a few of these greater scenes till we actually had a greater thought of how one can take care of the water underneath our belts. So I believe we’re in fairly, fairly fine condition now to grasp what we have to do higher subsequent time.
io9: Right. So since you spent a lot time getting all the things proper on this one, how a lot simpler are the next sequels?
Letteri: Well, I believe sure issues we received’t need to spend as a lot time on, just like the characters. I do know there are issues that I wish to change that we will do higher there, however we’ve obtained a reasonably good foundation for it. Same factor with the water. There are issues we will do higher there. We’ve obtained a reasonably good foundation for it, however we’ll replenish that point with all the brand new stuff within the story that Jim has provide you with. So there’ll nonetheless be loads to do.
io9: In phrases of an actor, having 4 or 5 scripts that reveal the place your character goes or the place it’s been may be very useful. Is it in any respect useful in visible results to know the place the story and the characters are going thus far prematurely?
Letteri: Yeah, it actually does for sort of a mixture of the 2 causes we simply talked about. One is, you realize, the place you actually can put your effort and time and put money into getting these programs going as a result of you realize they’re going to hold you throughout. You may make a distinct resolution if the timeframe you’re going to make use of it in may be very quick, but additionally in the truth that then you’ll be able to construct on it. Like, you realize, a 13-year hole is totally different than a three-week hole. So now we’re rolling proper into the following movie and you’ve got that momentum behind you. The artists know what to do and truly, you don’t wish to cease since you wish to you don’t wish to lose that momentum.
io9: How vital is it that the workforce on these movies largely stays the identical, in the event that they in reality do?
Letteri: Absolutely. Look, I’d say at the very least—possibly not half—however there have been a number of hundred folks on this movie that had been round for the primary movie, and there have been at the very least 100 who had been round on [Lord of the] Rings. Like we’ve obtained good longevity with our workforce right here. We’ve been collectively for a very long time. There’s good depth in it. It actually helps while you’re working as a result of we all know what we’re speaking about. You can actually flip these items round loads faster.
io9: That leads into one thing else I’m interested by. I really feel like with Weta being so close-knit and so distant, it’d keep away from some points visible results artists have been speaking about in recent times. There are a lot of tales concerning the results trade, folks being overworked, underpaid, and may there be unions? As somebody who has been doing this for thus lengthy, and received a number of Oscars, I’m interested by your take.
Letteri: Yeah. The overwork factor, I don’t know the way you get round that. I imply, one of many issues that may be useful is having a bit of higher plan on some movies coming into it. You hear a whole lot of tales about, “Okay, we’re making up the third act as we go.” Fortunately, that wasn’t the case on this one. But you continue to work exhausting since you solely get one chunk on the apple, proper? Like, for those who go dwelling early and also you don’t put in that one factor that you just actually wish to put in, it’s not going within the film without end, you realize? This is what we do. This is your alternative to get it in there. You sleep subsequent week. Look, we’ve all pulled all-nighters for worse causes than this in order that’s why a whole lot of us get into this enterprise.
But I additionally perceive that lots of people don’t wish to be pressured to do this on a regular basis as a result of the trade has been cranking for the final, you realize, 10 years or so. So folks do want a break they usually should be lined once they get that break. You obtained to deal with that as properly. I imply, you need your artists all the time to be acting at their peak and their peak goes to be no matter makes them pleased as a result of it’s a really artistic, collaborative enterprise. You obtained to have that.
io9: So stepping again a bit, Avatar got here out in 2009 and altered the sport. This film, 13 years later, is altering the sport once more. Avatar 3, although, can be out in two years. So how, or can, these films be as technologically vital as the primary two, or do they not need to?
Letteri: I don’t suppose they need to. I believe that’s a byproduct of us creating what we have to do to see what we wish to see on display. It’s not about driving the expertise a lot as, like, now we have to construct it as a result of we’d like it.
io9: Jim talked about lately that an Avatar TV present might occur sooner or later if the expertise obtained cheaper. And I do know that’s one thing George Lucas stated about Star Wars—and now, lastly, now we have Star Wars TV. So what particularly do you suppose must change for an Avatar TV present to occur to be cost-effective?
Letteri: Well, the factor about doing function movies that’s totally different than TV is function movies, you’re taking the time to develop these new issues. So while you say one thing is dear, like what you had been saying earlier, there’s a whole lot of prices that goes into spinning these items up for the very first time, proper? I keep in mind engaged on Jurassic Park. We did like 65 pictures and it took a 12 months. That was a giant deal. Now you are able to do a dinosaur on your house pc. But for those who’re doing one thing for the primary time, it’s going to take time. And a whole lot of TV reveals don’t have that luxurious due to the time-frame they’re on. Film is all about taking that point. Like I stated, our first scene took a 12 months. How many episodes would it’s a must to ship in a 12 months? It’s a distinct time scale, and that’s why I like working in movie, as a result of we get to take that and, you realize, construct it.
Avatar: The Way of Water is now in theaters.
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